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[DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

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[DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

hadrian
In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel,
including the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the
question of if Camel needs its own console popped up.

My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship
with a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting
with 3.0).

I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to
have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not
really maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the
community to maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should
focus on the server side technology that we do so well.

Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either
move the console in a subproject or remove it completely.

Thoughts?
Hadrian


--
Hadrian Zbarcea
Principal Software Architect
Talend, Inc
http://coders.talend.com/
http://camelbot.blogspot.com/
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

jstrachan
I'd be in favour of moving it to a sandbox so folks can tinker with it
if they want.

On 25 January 2013 16:57, Hadrian Zbarcea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including
> the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if
> Camel needs its own console popped up.
>
> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship with a
> web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting with 3.0).
>
> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to have.
> However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not really
> maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to
> maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the
> server side technology that we do so well.
>
> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either move
> the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>
> Thoughts?
> Hadrian
>
>
> --
> Hadrian Zbarcea
> Principal Software Architect
> Talend, Inc
> http://coders.talend.com/
> http://camelbot.blogspot.com/



--
James
-------
Red Hat

Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/

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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Rob Davies
In reply to this post by hadrian
I'm in favour of removing the console completely, for the reasons you' d outlined.

On 25 Jan 2013, at 16:57, Hadrian Zbarcea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if Camel needs its own console popped up.
>
> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship with a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting with 3.0).
>
> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not really maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the server side technology that we do so well.
>
> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either move the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>
> Thoughts?
> Hadrian
>
>
> --
> Hadrian Zbarcea
> Principal Software Architect
> Talend, Inc
> http://coders.talend.com/
> http://camelbot.blogspot.com/

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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Charles Moulliard-2
In reply to this post by hadrian
Hi Hadrian,

Camel is not only a serve side technology and the added value of a web
console makes a lot sense regarding endpoint definition/declaration, routes
created / camelContext and certainly for tons of others reasons that I
could not explain here. You cannot imagine How helpful it is when we have
to present Camel to a customer. With a webconsole, we can immediately
display what happen in a camel exchange, the number of exchanges processed,
... and statistics about processing time. This is also true for ActiveMQ
and you cannot imagine how much time you win during POC development simply
because you can easily show what happen at "what you call" the server side.
A web console helps to sell a technology ;-)
The web console should be part of Camel 3.0 and we have enough apache
talent sto help on CSS, ...

Regards,

Charles


On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Hadrian Zbarcea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including
> the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if
> Camel needs its own console popped up.
>
> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship with
> a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting with
> 3.0).
>
> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to
> have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not really
> maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to
> maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the
> server side technology that we do so well.
>
> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either move
> the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>
> Thoughts?
> Hadrian
>
>
> --
> Hadrian Zbarcea
> Principal Software Architect
> Talend, Inc
> http://coders.talend.com/
> http://camelbot.blogspot.com/
>



--
Charles Moulliard
Apache Committer / Sr. Enterprise Architect (RedHat)
Twitter : @cmoulliard | Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Guillaume Nodet
Administrator
I don't hink Hadrian said that a console has no value, just that the one
Camel has is not the best one and that it may be moved away and encourage
people to try and use other consoles.


On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Charles Moulliard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Hadrian,
>
> Camel is not only a serve side technology and the added value of a web
> console makes a lot sense regarding endpoint definition/declaration, routes
> created / camelContext and certainly for tons of others reasons that I
> could not explain here. You cannot imagine How helpful it is when we have
> to present Camel to a customer. With a webconsole, we can immediately
> display what happen in a camel exchange, the number of exchanges processed,
> ... and statistics about processing time. This is also true for ActiveMQ
> and you cannot imagine how much time you win during POC development simply
> because you can easily show what happen at "what you call" the server side.
> A web console helps to sell a technology ;-)
> The web console should be part of Camel 3.0 and we have enough apache
> talent sto help on CSS, ...
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Hadrian Zbarcea <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including
> > the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if
> > Camel needs its own console popped up.
> >
> > My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship
> with
> > a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting with
> > 3.0).
> >
> > I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to
> > have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not
> really
> > maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to
> > maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the
> > server side technology that we do so well.
> >
> > Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either
> move
> > the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> > Hadrian
> >
> >
> > --
> > Hadrian Zbarcea
> > Principal Software Architect
> > Talend, Inc
> > http://coders.talend.com/
> > http://camelbot.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Charles Moulliard
> Apache Committer / Sr. Enterprise Architect (RedHat)
> Twitter : @cmoulliard | Blog : http://cmoulliard.blogspot.com
>



--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Red Hat, Open Source Integration

Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://fusesource.com
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

dkulp@apache.org
In reply to this post by hadrian

I have to agree with the idea of removing it completely.   There are a couple good consoles out there that are better than what we have and maintained by people/communities that are better equipped to maintain ui things.   I'd say let the users find the one that fits their needs best.

Dan



On Jan 25, 2013, at 11:57 AM, Hadrian Zbarcea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if Camel needs its own console popped up.
>
> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship with a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting with 3.0).
>
> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not really maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the server side technology that we do so well.
>
> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either move the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>
> Thoughts?
> Hadrian
>
>
> --
> Hadrian Zbarcea
> Principal Software Architect
> Talend, Inc
> http://coders.talend.com/
> http://camelbot.blogspot.com/

--
Daniel Kulp
[hidden email] - http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend Community Coder - http://coders.talend.com

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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Raul Kripalani
In reply to this post by hadrian
So if the reason for trashing the console out of the Camel code base is the
proven lack of development focus on it, I wonder if it'd make sense to
contact the person behind the camelwatch project to ask if he'd be willing
to contribute it to ASF.

Fair enough it's not the slickest UI, but maybe he'll be happy to continue
evolving it here?

What truly harms us is having an outdated console not lining up with the
real richness of our monitoring and management API. Other than that,
offering a basic & optional console from within this community is not a bad
idea.

AFAIK, camelwatch is more up-to-date, so it could give us a leap in this
area.

Regards,
Raúl.
On 25 Jan 2013 17:58, "Hadrian Zbarcea" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including
> the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if
> Camel needs its own console popped up.
>
> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship with
> a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting with
> 3.0).
>
> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to
> have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not really
> maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to
> maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the
> server side technology that we do so well.
>
> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either move
> the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>
> Thoughts?
> Hadrian
>
>
> --
> Hadrian Zbarcea
> Principal Software Architect
> Talend, Inc
> http://coders.talend.com/
> http://camelbot.blogspot.com/
>
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Christian Schneider
In reply to this post by hadrian
I think it makes sense to trash the current console at some point.

On the other hand I think we need a good replacement. As the camel
management APIs evolve over time I think it makes sense to develop the
camel specific parts of a management console in the camel project.

What I would like to see is a foundation of a management framework as
one central apache project with plugins for this framework in each project.

So all projects can collaborate in the generic parts of such a framework
while being free to evolve their specific parts.

I would not really mind if such a console would need OSGi as long as it
can manage camel instances that are not using OSGi. So depending on the
OSGi dependency karaf or a separate project may be the better solution.

Christian

Am 25.01.2013 17:57, schrieb Hadrian Zbarcea:

> In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel,
> including the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the
> question of if Camel needs its own console popped up.
>
> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship
> with a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not
> (starting with 3.0).
>
> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to
> have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not
> really maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the
> community to maintain something of excellent quality. I think we
> should focus on the server side technology that we do so well.
>
> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either
> move the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>
> Thoughts?
> Hadrian
>
>


--
 
Christian Schneider
http://www.liquid-reality.de

Open Source Architect
Talend Application Integration Division http://www.talend.com

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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Guillaume Nodet
Administrator
On the other hand, if the plugin is developped outside the Camel project,
it could be written to support multiple camel versions at the same time,
especially older versions.  Which might be harder (though not impossible)
if hosted inside camel project itself.


On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Christian Schneider <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think it makes sense to trash the current console at some point.
>
> On the other hand I think we need a good replacement. As the camel
> management APIs evolve over time I think it makes sense to develop the
> camel specific parts of a management console in the camel project.
>
> What I would like to see is a foundation of a management framework as one
> central apache project with plugins for this framework in each project.
>
> So all projects can collaborate in the generic parts of such a framework
> while being free to evolve their specific parts.
>
> I would not really mind if such a console would need OSGi as long as it
> can manage camel instances that are not using OSGi. So depending on the
> OSGi dependency karaf or a separate project may be the better solution.
>
> Christian
>
> Am 25.01.2013 17:57, schrieb Hadrian Zbarcea:
>
>  In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including
>> the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if
>> Camel needs its own console popped up.
>>
>> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship
>> with a web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting
>> with 3.0).
>>
>> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to
>> have. However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not really
>> maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to
>> maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the
>> server side technology that we do so well.
>>
>> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either
>> move the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>> Hadrian
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
>  Christian Schneider
> http://www.liquid-reality.de
>
> Open Source Architect
> Talend Application Integration Division http://www.talend.com
>
>


--
------------------------
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Red Hat, Open Source Integration

Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://fusesource.com
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Christian Schneider
I think even both may be possible. We could have plugins for apache
projects that are written inside the projects or outside. Depending on
the interest of a project to build such a plugin and the feasibility to
develop it independent of the project release cycle.

The core part of my idea is though to have cooporation of multiple
organizations and projects towards such a management framework. I think
this is too big for one company to succeed on its own and I have seen
too many similar projects fail.

Christian

Am 25.01.2013 23:57, schrieb Guillaume Nodet:
> On the other hand, if the plugin is developped outside the Camel project,
> it could be written to support multiple camel versions at the same time,
> especially older versions.  Which might be harder (though not impossible)
> if hosted inside camel project itself.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Christian Schneider <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>

--
 
Christian Schneider
http://www.liquid-reality.de

Open Source Architect
Talend Application Integration Division http://www.talend.com

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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

hadrian
I'd keep this thread short and focus on achieving consensus (if
possible) on what to do with the existing console. So far it looks to me
like there is (almost(*)) consensus on not having the console part of
the camel distro.

The contenders are:
1. James proposal to move it to the sandbox (as an alternative to my
subproject suggestoin). I think that's an even better alternative. If
there is enough interest it can grow in the sandbox and then we can
decide on its future, uhm, future.
2. Get rid of it completely (Rob and Dan).

I am in favor of both with a slight bias towards 2. From the thread it's
not yet clear if the balance tips one way or another, so let's keep the
discussion going, looks like this will be easy to sort out.

Cheers,
Hadrian

(*) @cmoulliard: I agree with your point, but it helps way more to sell
said technology if you had sharp looking eye candy. History indicates
that it's not likely to get that from the current camel distro, yet more
likely to get it from karaf, hawt.io or other places (ALv2 licensed on
top of everything).



On 01/25/2013 06:05 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:

> I think even both may be possible. We could have plugins for apache
> projects that are written inside the projects or outside. Depending on
> the interest of a project to build such a plugin and the feasibility to
> develop it independent of the project release cycle.
>
> The core part of my idea is though to have cooporation of multiple
> organizations and projects towards such a management framework. I think
> this is too big for one company to succeed on its own and I have seen
> too many similar projects fail.
>
> Christian
>
> Am 25.01.2013 23:57, schrieb Guillaume Nodet:
>> On the other hand, if the plugin is developped outside the Camel project,
>> it could be written to support multiple camel versions at the same time,
>> especially older versions.  Which might be harder (though not impossible)
>> if hosted inside camel project itself.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Christian Schneider <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Johan Edstrom-2
Either or, I prefer 2 but sandbox might be a good idea.

On Jan 25, 2013, at 16:43, Hadrian Zbarcea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd keep this thread short and focus on achieving consensus (if possible) on what to do with the existing console. So far it looks to me like there is (almost(*)) consensus on not having the console part of the camel distro.
>
> The contenders are:
> 1. James proposal to move it to the sandbox (as an alternative to my subproject suggestoin). I think that's an even better alternative. If there is enough interest it can grow in the sandbox and then we can decide on its future, uhm, future.
> 2. Get rid of it completely (Rob and Dan).
>
> I am in favor of both with a slight bias towards 2. From the thread it's not yet clear if the balance tips one way or another, so let's keep the discussion going, looks like this will be easy to sort out.
>
> Cheers,
> Hadrian
>
> (*) @cmoulliard: I agree with your point, but it helps way more to sell said technology if you had sharp looking eye candy. History indicates that it's not likely to get that from the current camel distro, yet more likely to get it from karaf, hawt.io or other places (ALv2 licensed on top of everything).
>
>
>
> On 01/25/2013 06:05 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>> I think even both may be possible. We could have plugins for apache
>> projects that are written inside the projects or outside. Depending on
>> the interest of a project to build such a plugin and the feasibility to
>> develop it independent of the project release cycle.
>>
>> The core part of my idea is though to have cooporation of multiple
>> organizations and projects towards such a management framework. I think
>> this is too big for one company to succeed on its own and I have seen
>> too many similar projects fail.
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> Am 25.01.2013 23:57, schrieb Guillaume Nodet:
>>> On the other hand, if the plugin is developped outside the Camel project,
>>> it could be written to support multiple camel versions at the same time,
>>> especially older versions.  Which might be harder (though not impossible)
>>> if hosted inside camel project itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Christian Schneider <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Claus Ibsen-2
In reply to this post by hadrian
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Hadrian Zbarcea <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In the context of a few web based consoles available for Camel, including
> the Karaf console and the recently announced hawt.io, the question of if
> Camel needs its own console popped up.
>
> My understanding is the some are in favor or Camel continuing to ship with a
> web console. My personal opinion is that we should not (starting with 3.0).
>
> I understand that a web console is very useful to users and a nice to have.
> However, our console is not that great (to put it mildly), not really
> maintained and we lack the necessary ui knowledge in the community to
> maintain something of excellent quality. I think we should focus on the
> server side technology that we do so well.
>
> Therefore, my personal position and proposal is that we should either move
> the console in a subproject or remove it completely.
>
> Thoughts?
> Hadrian
>

+1 to remove


>
> --
> Hadrian Zbarcea
> Principal Software Architect
> Talend, Inc
> http://coders.talend.com/
> http://camelbot.blogspot.com/



--
Claus Ibsen
-----------------
Red Hat, Inc.
FuseSource is now part of Red Hat
Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: davsclaus
Blog: http://davsclaus.com
Author of Camel in Action: http://www.manning.com/ibsen
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Christian Schneider
In reply to this post by hadrian
I am also +1 to remove it.

Christian

Am 26.01.2013 00:43, schrieb Hadrian Zbarcea:

> I'd keep this thread short and focus on achieving consensus (if
> possible) on what to do with the existing console. So far it looks to
> me like there is (almost(*)) consensus on not having the console part
> of the camel distro.
>
> The contenders are:
> 1. James proposal to move it to the sandbox (as an alternative to my
> subproject suggestoin). I think that's an even better alternative. If
> there is enough interest it can grow in the sandbox and then we can
> decide on its future, uhm, future.
> 2. Get rid of it completely (Rob and Dan).
>
> I am in favor of both with a slight bias towards 2. From the thread
> it's not yet clear if the balance tips one way or another, so let's
> keep the discussion going, looks like this will be easy to sort out.
>
> Cheers,
> Hadrian
>
> (*) @cmoulliard: I agree with your point, but it helps way more to
> sell said technology if you had sharp looking eye candy. History
> indicates that it's not likely to get that from the current camel
> distro, yet more likely to get it from karaf, hawt.io or other places
> (ALv2 licensed on top of everything).
>
>
>
> On 01/25/2013 06:05 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>> I think even both may be possible. We could have plugins for apache
>> projects that are written inside the projects or outside. Depending on
>> the interest of a project to build such a plugin and the feasibility to
>> develop it independent of the project release cycle.
>>
>> The core part of my idea is though to have cooporation of multiple
>> organizations and projects towards such a management framework. I think
>> this is too big for one company to succeed on its own and I have seen
>> too many similar projects fail.
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> Am 25.01.2013 23:57, schrieb Guillaume Nodet:
>>> On the other hand, if the plugin is developped outside the Camel
>>> project,
>>> it could be written to support multiple camel versions at the same
>>> time,
>>> especially older versions.  Which might be harder (though not
>>> impossible)
>>> if hosted inside camel project itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Christian Schneider <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>


--
 
Christian Schneider
http://www.liquid-reality.de

Open Source Architect
Talend Application Integration Division http://www.talend.com

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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Jon Anstey
In reply to this post by hadrian
+1 to remove the web console for Camel 3.0 (option #2)
On 2013-01-25 8:14 PM, "Hadrian Zbarcea" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'd keep this thread short and focus on achieving consensus (if possible)
> on what to do with the existing console. So far it looks to me like there
> is (almost(*)) consensus on not having the console part of the camel distro.
>
> The contenders are:
> 1. James proposal to move it to the sandbox (as an alternative to my
> subproject suggestoin). I think that's an even better alternative. If there
> is enough interest it can grow in the sandbox and then we can decide on its
> future, uhm, future.
> 2. Get rid of it completely (Rob and Dan).
>
> I am in favor of both with a slight bias towards 2. From the thread it's
> not yet clear if the balance tips one way or another, so let's keep the
> discussion going, looks like this will be easy to sort out.
>
> Cheers,
> Hadrian
>
> (*) @cmoulliard: I agree with your point, but it helps way more to sell
> said technology if you had sharp looking eye candy. History indicates that
> it's not likely to get that from the current camel distro, yet more likely
> to get it from karaf, hawt.io or other places (ALv2 licensed on top of
> everything).
>
>
>
> On 01/25/2013 06:05 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:
>
>> I think even both may be possible. We could have plugins for apache
>> projects that are written inside the projects or outside. Depending on
>> the interest of a project to build such a plugin and the feasibility to
>> develop it independent of the project release cycle.
>>
>> The core part of my idea is though to have cooporation of multiple
>> organizations and projects towards such a management framework. I think
>> this is too big for one company to succeed on its own and I have seen
>> too many similar projects fail.
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> Am 25.01.2013 23:57, schrieb Guillaume Nodet:
>>
>>> On the other hand, if the plugin is developped outside the Camel project,
>>> it could be written to support multiple camel versions at the same time,
>>> especially older versions.  Which might be harder (though not impossible)
>>> if hosted inside camel project itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Christian Schneider <
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

Christian Mueller
+1 for removing it completely.

As Hadrian said, we (the Camel project itself) should focus on the server
side technology that we do so well.

Other projects like Karaf WebConsole, Hawt.io, Camelwatch, ... are better
places to provide this kind of management functionality via a
gui/console/... After some time we will see which of these projects succeed
and we may decide to support the one or the others (what ever "supports"
will mean - link from the Camel web site, writing a plug in, writing an
example, ...).

Best,
Christian

On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 6:42 PM, Jon Anstey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> +1 to remove the web console for Camel 3.0 (option #2)
> On 2013-01-25 8:14 PM, "Hadrian Zbarcea" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I'd keep this thread short and focus on achieving consensus (if possible)
> > on what to do with the existing console. So far it looks to me like there
> > is (almost(*)) consensus on not having the console part of the camel
> distro.
> >
> > The contenders are:
> > 1. James proposal to move it to the sandbox (as an alternative to my
> > subproject suggestoin). I think that's an even better alternative. If
> there
> > is enough interest it can grow in the sandbox and then we can decide on
> its
> > future, uhm, future.
> > 2. Get rid of it completely (Rob and Dan).
> >
> > I am in favor of both with a slight bias towards 2. From the thread it's
> > not yet clear if the balance tips one way or another, so let's keep the
> > discussion going, looks like this will be easy to sort out.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Hadrian
> >
> > (*) @cmoulliard: I agree with your point, but it helps way more to sell
> > said technology if you had sharp looking eye candy. History indicates
> that
> > it's not likely to get that from the current camel distro, yet more
> likely
> > to get it from karaf, hawt.io or other places (ALv2 licensed on top of
> > everything).
> >
> >
> >
> > On 01/25/2013 06:05 PM, Christian Schneider wrote:
> >
> >> I think even both may be possible. We could have plugins for apache
> >> projects that are written inside the projects or outside. Depending on
> >> the interest of a project to build such a plugin and the feasibility to
> >> develop it independent of the project release cycle.
> >>
> >> The core part of my idea is though to have cooporation of multiple
> >> organizations and projects towards such a management framework. I think
> >> this is too big for one company to succeed on its own and I have seen
> >> too many similar projects fail.
> >>
> >> Christian
> >>
> >> Am 25.01.2013 23:57, schrieb Guillaume Nodet:
> >>
> >>> On the other hand, if the plugin is developped outside the Camel
> project,
> >>> it could be written to support multiple camel versions at the same
> time,
> >>> especially older versions.  Which might be harder (though not
> impossible)
> >>> if hosted inside camel project itself.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Christian Schneider <
> >>> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
>



--
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

jstrachan
In reply to this post by Raul Kripalani
On 25 January 2013 22:23, Raul Kripalani <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So if the reason for trashing the console out of the Camel code base is the
> proven lack of development focus on it, I wonder if it'd make sense to
> contact the person behind the camelwatch project to ask if he'd be willing
> to contribute it to ASF.
>
> Fair enough it's not the slickest UI, but maybe he'll be happy to continue
> evolving it here?
>
> What truly harms us is having an outdated console not lining up with the
> real richness of our monitoring and management API. Other than that,
> offering a basic & optional console from within this community is not a bad
> idea.
>
> AFAIK, camelwatch is more up-to-date, so it could give us a leap in this
> area.

I remember looking at camelwatch a while back & its a good effort.  I
tried to re-evaluate it again though I'm afraid I can't build it:

[ERROR] Failed to execute goal on project camelwatch-api: Could not
resolve dependencies for project
org.camelwatch:camelwatch-api:jar:0.5-SNAPSHOT: Failure to find
com.sksamuel.jmxc:jmxc:jar:1.0.0-SNAPSHOT


Incidentally most of the things on the camel-watch roadmap we've
already added to the hawtio camel plugin:
https://github.com/sksamuel/camelwatch#roadmap

so it'd be good to see what the delta is between them. Maybe
camelwatch can reuse hawtio or vice versa?

From looking at the ReadMe and screen shots I think hawtio can do most
of the same things now while being a 10X smaller WAR despite including
other plugins (e.g. ActiveMQ, JMX & logging); though hawtio does't
provide a REST API to Camel (it reuses jolokia for all JMX access).

Maybe the REST API to Camel is something the Apache Camel project
should provide? e.g. maybe we should refactor camel-web to just being
a set of JAXRS beans that consoles & tooling can reuse & merge in any
changes camel-watch made on the JAXRS side of things?

--
James
-------
Red Hat

Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://fusesource.com
Twitter: jstrachan, fusenews
Blog: http://macstrac.blogspot.com/

Open Source Integration
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Re: [DISCUSS][CAMEL-3.0] Does camel need a web console

aedwards
This post was updated on .
In regards to camelwatch,

I am having the same issue as James building camelwatch due to the new dependency on the jmxc library.  

It seems as though in a recent update, sksamual has added a new dependency on https://github.com/sksamuel/jmxc.   When I try to build jmxc library I get some scala compile errors.

In my current situation, I made some changes locally to camelwatch, but now I can't merge back into master due to the recent dependencies on jmxc.    I have tried contacting sksamuel, but perhaps he's on vacation or I have his wrong email.

My two cents is that I like the approach in camelwatch, I like that there is a separate rest api vs the ui layer.

My vote would be to work with sksamuel and host it with apache to ensure a bit of stability as well as get rid of the existing camel-web.   hawtio looks great as well, I'm just not familiar enough with angular yet to know how to extend it..


Regarding:
Maybe the REST API to Camel is something the Apache Camel project
should provide? e.g. maybe we should refactor camel-web to just being
a set of JAXRS beans that consoles & tooling can reuse & merge in any
changes camel-watch made on the JAXRS side of things?
++ Yes, a rest API would be great, should consider the one included with camelwatch
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